This interview took place at Kyle's Korner with Linda Linscott, Director of Programs and Services
Who are your clientele, is it private individuals, school systems, etc.?
Our clients come from all 5 surrounding counties, mainly Milwaukee and Waukesha, which are probably 45% of our population. But then we have families who come from Ozaukee and Washington County, some from Racine and Kenosha. People don't travel much out of their comfort zone; 20 minutes, especially when you're feeling very vulnerable. But I have some people who have come as far as East Troy, and Jefferson County, particularly is it's a specialized situation. My teen group is extremely popular, teens can be 7th or 8th graders up to 17 or 18 year olds. That group is a very diverse group because it can be an early loss or a loss that happened when they were very young, but because they are teens they are beginning to understand the process as well as experiencing hormones, dealing with rage and identity crisis among other things. So, grief just evolves into their ugly head, although you cant use it as an excuse, you still have to try to navigate it. And so the parents meet with me as well as the kids with other adults.
Do schools refer you to the parents? How do they find you?
It's a requirement, kids can't participate without their parents. We're a family system model, our understanding is that everyone is grieving, and I understand parents are like "I've done that, I've been there", but you also need to understand where your child is at, and why is it rearing its ugly head at this point and time. So the parent group helps navigate "is this a grief issue" and "how do I deal with this and still honor their grief".
We can be found through schools and churches. The funeral homes really helped us start, they gave us a free space so they know about us. We were above a funeral home, one of the funeral homes actually donated the space upstairs to us. Then the Ryman Publishing saw a segment on Ted Perry's kids a few years ago, and thought those kids need a home for themselves, hence we have our space here. But funeral homes, churches, hospices, it really is no one way or the other, I can't really say "this is where we get our people from."
Our focus is going to be mainly on teachers and schools, we saw you have handouts for teachers and schools, do you ever get called in to a school?
It depends on the schools situation and how they embrace that. Some have automatic policies, the best way to put that is not every school will respond when they get the message from the secretary that "so and so" was out for a funeral, my comment to them is then "what is your policy? how do you embrace that family or do you just not acknowledge it?" Most school systems do not acknowledge it. There is a lot of uncomfortable-ness with death and dying, and so unless there's a problem, and that's when school's will refer us. If suddenly there's a drop in academics or a behavioral problem, kids will get diagnosed with ADD or various other things, because suddenly they don't know why this is happening and no one's communicating, so school's don't really always want me in.
How does the connection get figured out that there is a grief issue?
It's a two way street. It's not just the school system, the school system is aware when so and so was out for a funeral, why aren't we reaching out to them and how can we assist. School's often will not dig into the situation unless there is a problem in the classroom or if the parent says "you know what, we're having a very difficult time, just so you're aware we were very close to this person." But no one asks "who died?" It's a two way street, it's not one way or the other. And so school's are aware of us because we go to the resource fair at MPS, so they know about us, they've heard about us. Once in a while we'll go in when asked, but it's behind closed doors. Nicolet asked me to come in 2 years ago. There were four suicides in a six month period, and the last one was a star athlete. I was getting twelve kids from Nicolet wanting to come to my group, my group was already filled, and I said you know what, why don't I come to you guys? Because you're dynamics are going to be a whole lot different than what's going on in my group. So Nicolet said sure we'll let you come in, but one- we won't advertise it, two- we won't talk about it or acknowledge you are here, and three - we will put you in a space far, far away.
Why the secrecy?
When it comes to suicide, there is a fear that it's going to be repetitive, someone will want to "copy cat", and that's not the case; you talk about the amount of health issues, what else is going on. Or if it is a bully situation, let's embrace this and talk about it. But where these kids (at Nicolet) are coming from is three or four years ago, there were two students who were killed in a car accident from Nicolet, they did memorial services and they did walks, and these kids are saying "well what about this (star) athlete? I used to line up at the line with this guy, and we're supposed to pretend we didn't just lose him?" So they were more angry at the lack of acknowledgement, but yet they praised these other two kids. But the schools didn't want to talk about it (suicide). Yet Sussex Hamilton had me out there; I did a parent group and they had me out for eight hours to do a group with the kids. So it all depends upon the administration, and that was a suicide. I've also been asked to come into a classroom with a student who is dying from a terminal illness, I've been asked to go into the classroom to help the kids have that conversation.
And that's obviously not going to be as hidden as a suicide, more open?
Exactly. You want to get the class to talk about it, how to accept it, and what do we do once he or she dies.
And that's with the student in the classroom?
Right. A lot of times they want that conversation, because no one has asked them why their hair has been falling out or why they are sick or why they don't have to do their homework. So we will invite them to see what it is they want to talk about, we'll do a lot of different activities that we do here. And sometimes they don't want to be there, but often teachers want help to navigate the situation. It all really depends upon the administration.
What's the most prevalent situation you deal with?
There really isn't one. I mean right now it's heroine. So, we have a special circumstances group, but right now my group is filled with a lot of suicides so I'm going to need to increase it, because there's a lot of guilt with that; traumatic experiences. If any deaths are more difficult in length of time in coping, it's those types of deaths. I mean, we have kids right now that are coping with being left with a dead parent, maybe for days, because they died and their friends just took everything, including the cell phone and what have you, and left the child with the parent until someone came over, no one knew that. Here's this three year old trying to navigate the house and call somebody, but being told don't go outside and what have you, and you hear a lot of stories like that which, so we provide the venue for it to be talked about. And yet there are other kids who are not told the true story of how someone died, and those are difficult. It's hard, even with a terminal illness. It's how honest the family is with the child. It isn't a matter of who is dying, but the relationship they had with them. Because sometimes they've identified the grandparent as the parent. It's tough to say.
If you could pick a couple pieces of advice for a teacher who had a student that was showing the symptoms of grieving, what would they be?
What I hear a lot with our parents, and like I've said they don't communicate also, is they have to advocate for the student. At the beginning of the year I think it's important for teachers to look at it going "is there anything I need to know that happened throughout the summer?" If a death occurred during the summer, no one knows, they've been out of school. Or maybe the death happened a while ago, but no one informs that teacher or it's from a different school. Maybe even making up a list, "is there anything I need to know about Johnny and Susie that's important information?" And even asking home; was there a recent death, was there a divorce, was there anyone coming in or out of their lives? It would be helpful for parents to get that conversation going as well as for the teacher to go "ok, now I know why".
Would you have a teacher do that preemptively or only when they see symptoms?
I think that it should be done at the beginning of the school year. Have a little survey; let me get to know you as a family and your child, what works at home when so and so misbehaves that I could incorporate into the classroom. The really simplistic things that you should be asking anyways, and it doesn't have to be a death, but that way you embrace that family into working with you as a team so you can use what is working at home. It's not us against you or you against us. Being able to do it through email today is so much easier for families, it helps everybody.
Are families pretty receptive to giving out that information?
Most are, and those that are not, I'm thinking well there's your problem. And why aren't they willing to, but that's a whole other issue. I think given the opportunity, most families give that information up.
How do you take that information and then approach the student?
Invite them in to the conversation. First of all, it's two fold, they don't want to become the kid who's sister or parent died. They know that's part of their identity and it's always going to be a concurrent struggle, and when do you tell your story type thing. But to say how would you like me to approach this? I know so and so died, how would you like me to help you? For example, there are a lot of time when you're going to find kids don't concentrate in school, because they're worried who's next. Or they were told during school that so and so died, so this is now a trigger for them. As well as now things at home financially and everything else are chaotic and they know everything that is going on. Even adults have a hard time concentrating, now you put it in an eight year olds mind or even a high schooler's. I know have to give up all my activities, because I know have to babysit, or I may need to get a job to help support my family.
So your also dealing with the life changes that come along with the death?
Oh, the secondary losses are more impactful than the death itself. The upkeep of the house, the chores and responsibilities. It's a part of life but these kids are now integral part of this process and that sucks. And life as they know it, as the innocence, is difficult and wanting to go back to that normal, but that normal is never coming back.
How do you set up your groups, and what types of activities do you use?
I don't have a curriculum. My groups are open ended, so people are at different points of the process. Some are in the early bereaved and some have been here for a while. So that in itself is difficult, but the dynamics change. A year ago I had a completely different population than I do this year. We do a post group in every one of my groups. So right after group I need to hear how the activity went, did it bomb why did it bomb, and common themes. So based upon that common theme, we will develop an activity. So for example, there are a lot of times when telling your story is very difficult, and your whole identity. So one that seems to be very popular with the kids is the various masks we wear. We talk with the parents about the fact that you leave here and you have to put a persona on, you're at work and everyone says you need to move forward and you need to concentrate, also when you're at school.
With the younger kids we have them create shields, this is the person you're on the outside, but who is it you're protecting on the inside? So that in itself plus they get to play with the shields so that's pretty cool. So with the kids they get to see "this is who I'm protecting" and sometimes the shield is as big as them, and so it's a visual and it's play. The teens create the masks and do "if you really knew me" based on an MTV program that was on years ago, to say this is how you're perceiving yourself and all your friends are telling you "I wish I had my friend back, I wish you were back to this". Well what is really going on and who are you projecting to others, what is it you would really like to tell them. And this takes a little while with the pre-teens and teens, it may evolve three or four weeks later, but we'll say if you really knew me this is what's happening to me. Lots of things come out, cutting or other types of self mutilation that cause harm. And they know about our confidentiality, so when it comes to those things its out the window. We use the venue that we will help you tell your parent and assistance to talk, it's almost a relief to have a safe haven, because it's a home setting, it's not an clinic, it's not a church or a doctors office, it's an extension of their home and they feel like they can probably tell someone and they will still accept me. So that's pretty powerful for the kids to do. So if we hear they are having trouble telling their story we will develop activity on that basis.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an additional short interview done with David Lynch, Director of Student Services/Guidance, Divine Savior Holy Angels High School, Milwaukee, WI.
How does you find out about a death that may affect a student?
Typically a parent notifies the school of a recent death, and may let us know if the students is having difficulty with the death of a loved one. We also find out through the students application to the high school when the term “diseased” is entered for a parents name. In other situations the student tells us, the counselors, that there has been a death. Typically the death is recent (within a year) but it may also have occurred years earlier back and yet still be affecting the student. In most cases it is a parent, and death is a result of a long term illness like cancer.
How do students try and deal with death and grief on their own?
Some students try and hide the fact that a loved one has died, especially a parent. In one case a student whose father committed suicide told friends that he died from an aneurism. They do not want to be treated differently or singled out by teachers and friends. They may even use
school as a refuge, delving deeper into homework in order to focus on something other than the death, something they have control over. These reactions also apply to students who might be living with a terminally ill parent; school and schoolwork become a refuge from the pain.
What strategies do you use to help grieving students?
The main thing is to listen and let them take the lead on the direction they want to go with discussions; listen and let the
student lead. Sometimes students just want to vent their frustration, confusion, sorrow, anger, and guilt at wanting to forget and escape the pain of they are experiencing. If possible, I ask the student to tell me about the deceased. This allows them to review happy memories that can ease grief. There are also situations where the students are dealing with a terminally ill loved one and are preparing for death. There have been cases where students have never been to a funeral and turn to us for counseling on what happens during a funeral. I often discuss the stages of grief described by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross; denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, and the fact that this may involve
cycles where one loops back from later to earlier stages. I also encourage students to think about “legacy”- something they do to honor the wishes of the deceased. Maybe the deceased wanted them to go to college; we can help the student reach that goal. This type of focus helps give greater meaning the loss. As a Catholic school, we also talk about the spiritual aspects of death.
What do you advise teachers in order to help grieving students?
Teachers are asked to be patient and flexible. If a student is dealing with grief, allow them more time or even exemptions on school work if they are unable to focus. Some students refuse the offered help; they want to be strong and keep their commitments, and as mentioned before, not
get special treatment or be singled out from their peers.
Who are your clientele, is it private individuals, school systems, etc.?
Our clients come from all 5 surrounding counties, mainly Milwaukee and Waukesha, which are probably 45% of our population. But then we have families who come from Ozaukee and Washington County, some from Racine and Kenosha. People don't travel much out of their comfort zone; 20 minutes, especially when you're feeling very vulnerable. But I have some people who have come as far as East Troy, and Jefferson County, particularly is it's a specialized situation. My teen group is extremely popular, teens can be 7th or 8th graders up to 17 or 18 year olds. That group is a very diverse group because it can be an early loss or a loss that happened when they were very young, but because they are teens they are beginning to understand the process as well as experiencing hormones, dealing with rage and identity crisis among other things. So, grief just evolves into their ugly head, although you cant use it as an excuse, you still have to try to navigate it. And so the parents meet with me as well as the kids with other adults.
Do schools refer you to the parents? How do they find you?
It's a requirement, kids can't participate without their parents. We're a family system model, our understanding is that everyone is grieving, and I understand parents are like "I've done that, I've been there", but you also need to understand where your child is at, and why is it rearing its ugly head at this point and time. So the parent group helps navigate "is this a grief issue" and "how do I deal with this and still honor their grief".
We can be found through schools and churches. The funeral homes really helped us start, they gave us a free space so they know about us. We were above a funeral home, one of the funeral homes actually donated the space upstairs to us. Then the Ryman Publishing saw a segment on Ted Perry's kids a few years ago, and thought those kids need a home for themselves, hence we have our space here. But funeral homes, churches, hospices, it really is no one way or the other, I can't really say "this is where we get our people from."
Our focus is going to be mainly on teachers and schools, we saw you have handouts for teachers and schools, do you ever get called in to a school?
It depends on the schools situation and how they embrace that. Some have automatic policies, the best way to put that is not every school will respond when they get the message from the secretary that "so and so" was out for a funeral, my comment to them is then "what is your policy? how do you embrace that family or do you just not acknowledge it?" Most school systems do not acknowledge it. There is a lot of uncomfortable-ness with death and dying, and so unless there's a problem, and that's when school's will refer us. If suddenly there's a drop in academics or a behavioral problem, kids will get diagnosed with ADD or various other things, because suddenly they don't know why this is happening and no one's communicating, so school's don't really always want me in.
How does the connection get figured out that there is a grief issue?
It's a two way street. It's not just the school system, the school system is aware when so and so was out for a funeral, why aren't we reaching out to them and how can we assist. School's often will not dig into the situation unless there is a problem in the classroom or if the parent says "you know what, we're having a very difficult time, just so you're aware we were very close to this person." But no one asks "who died?" It's a two way street, it's not one way or the other. And so school's are aware of us because we go to the resource fair at MPS, so they know about us, they've heard about us. Once in a while we'll go in when asked, but it's behind closed doors. Nicolet asked me to come in 2 years ago. There were four suicides in a six month period, and the last one was a star athlete. I was getting twelve kids from Nicolet wanting to come to my group, my group was already filled, and I said you know what, why don't I come to you guys? Because you're dynamics are going to be a whole lot different than what's going on in my group. So Nicolet said sure we'll let you come in, but one- we won't advertise it, two- we won't talk about it or acknowledge you are here, and three - we will put you in a space far, far away.
Why the secrecy?
When it comes to suicide, there is a fear that it's going to be repetitive, someone will want to "copy cat", and that's not the case; you talk about the amount of health issues, what else is going on. Or if it is a bully situation, let's embrace this and talk about it. But where these kids (at Nicolet) are coming from is three or four years ago, there were two students who were killed in a car accident from Nicolet, they did memorial services and they did walks, and these kids are saying "well what about this (star) athlete? I used to line up at the line with this guy, and we're supposed to pretend we didn't just lose him?" So they were more angry at the lack of acknowledgement, but yet they praised these other two kids. But the schools didn't want to talk about it (suicide). Yet Sussex Hamilton had me out there; I did a parent group and they had me out for eight hours to do a group with the kids. So it all depends upon the administration, and that was a suicide. I've also been asked to come into a classroom with a student who is dying from a terminal illness, I've been asked to go into the classroom to help the kids have that conversation.
And that's obviously not going to be as hidden as a suicide, more open?
Exactly. You want to get the class to talk about it, how to accept it, and what do we do once he or she dies.
And that's with the student in the classroom?
Right. A lot of times they want that conversation, because no one has asked them why their hair has been falling out or why they are sick or why they don't have to do their homework. So we will invite them to see what it is they want to talk about, we'll do a lot of different activities that we do here. And sometimes they don't want to be there, but often teachers want help to navigate the situation. It all really depends upon the administration.
What's the most prevalent situation you deal with?
There really isn't one. I mean right now it's heroine. So, we have a special circumstances group, but right now my group is filled with a lot of suicides so I'm going to need to increase it, because there's a lot of guilt with that; traumatic experiences. If any deaths are more difficult in length of time in coping, it's those types of deaths. I mean, we have kids right now that are coping with being left with a dead parent, maybe for days, because they died and their friends just took everything, including the cell phone and what have you, and left the child with the parent until someone came over, no one knew that. Here's this three year old trying to navigate the house and call somebody, but being told don't go outside and what have you, and you hear a lot of stories like that which, so we provide the venue for it to be talked about. And yet there are other kids who are not told the true story of how someone died, and those are difficult. It's hard, even with a terminal illness. It's how honest the family is with the child. It isn't a matter of who is dying, but the relationship they had with them. Because sometimes they've identified the grandparent as the parent. It's tough to say.
If you could pick a couple pieces of advice for a teacher who had a student that was showing the symptoms of grieving, what would they be?
What I hear a lot with our parents, and like I've said they don't communicate also, is they have to advocate for the student. At the beginning of the year I think it's important for teachers to look at it going "is there anything I need to know that happened throughout the summer?" If a death occurred during the summer, no one knows, they've been out of school. Or maybe the death happened a while ago, but no one informs that teacher or it's from a different school. Maybe even making up a list, "is there anything I need to know about Johnny and Susie that's important information?" And even asking home; was there a recent death, was there a divorce, was there anyone coming in or out of their lives? It would be helpful for parents to get that conversation going as well as for the teacher to go "ok, now I know why".
Would you have a teacher do that preemptively or only when they see symptoms?
I think that it should be done at the beginning of the school year. Have a little survey; let me get to know you as a family and your child, what works at home when so and so misbehaves that I could incorporate into the classroom. The really simplistic things that you should be asking anyways, and it doesn't have to be a death, but that way you embrace that family into working with you as a team so you can use what is working at home. It's not us against you or you against us. Being able to do it through email today is so much easier for families, it helps everybody.
Are families pretty receptive to giving out that information?
Most are, and those that are not, I'm thinking well there's your problem. And why aren't they willing to, but that's a whole other issue. I think given the opportunity, most families give that information up.
How do you take that information and then approach the student?
Invite them in to the conversation. First of all, it's two fold, they don't want to become the kid who's sister or parent died. They know that's part of their identity and it's always going to be a concurrent struggle, and when do you tell your story type thing. But to say how would you like me to approach this? I know so and so died, how would you like me to help you? For example, there are a lot of time when you're going to find kids don't concentrate in school, because they're worried who's next. Or they were told during school that so and so died, so this is now a trigger for them. As well as now things at home financially and everything else are chaotic and they know everything that is going on. Even adults have a hard time concentrating, now you put it in an eight year olds mind or even a high schooler's. I know have to give up all my activities, because I know have to babysit, or I may need to get a job to help support my family.
So your also dealing with the life changes that come along with the death?
Oh, the secondary losses are more impactful than the death itself. The upkeep of the house, the chores and responsibilities. It's a part of life but these kids are now integral part of this process and that sucks. And life as they know it, as the innocence, is difficult and wanting to go back to that normal, but that normal is never coming back.
How do you set up your groups, and what types of activities do you use?
I don't have a curriculum. My groups are open ended, so people are at different points of the process. Some are in the early bereaved and some have been here for a while. So that in itself is difficult, but the dynamics change. A year ago I had a completely different population than I do this year. We do a post group in every one of my groups. So right after group I need to hear how the activity went, did it bomb why did it bomb, and common themes. So based upon that common theme, we will develop an activity. So for example, there are a lot of times when telling your story is very difficult, and your whole identity. So one that seems to be very popular with the kids is the various masks we wear. We talk with the parents about the fact that you leave here and you have to put a persona on, you're at work and everyone says you need to move forward and you need to concentrate, also when you're at school.
With the younger kids we have them create shields, this is the person you're on the outside, but who is it you're protecting on the inside? So that in itself plus they get to play with the shields so that's pretty cool. So with the kids they get to see "this is who I'm protecting" and sometimes the shield is as big as them, and so it's a visual and it's play. The teens create the masks and do "if you really knew me" based on an MTV program that was on years ago, to say this is how you're perceiving yourself and all your friends are telling you "I wish I had my friend back, I wish you were back to this". Well what is really going on and who are you projecting to others, what is it you would really like to tell them. And this takes a little while with the pre-teens and teens, it may evolve three or four weeks later, but we'll say if you really knew me this is what's happening to me. Lots of things come out, cutting or other types of self mutilation that cause harm. And they know about our confidentiality, so when it comes to those things its out the window. We use the venue that we will help you tell your parent and assistance to talk, it's almost a relief to have a safe haven, because it's a home setting, it's not an clinic, it's not a church or a doctors office, it's an extension of their home and they feel like they can probably tell someone and they will still accept me. So that's pretty powerful for the kids to do. So if we hear they are having trouble telling their story we will develop activity on that basis.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
This is an additional short interview done with David Lynch, Director of Student Services/Guidance, Divine Savior Holy Angels High School, Milwaukee, WI.
How does you find out about a death that may affect a student?
Typically a parent notifies the school of a recent death, and may let us know if the students is having difficulty with the death of a loved one. We also find out through the students application to the high school when the term “diseased” is entered for a parents name. In other situations the student tells us, the counselors, that there has been a death. Typically the death is recent (within a year) but it may also have occurred years earlier back and yet still be affecting the student. In most cases it is a parent, and death is a result of a long term illness like cancer.
How do students try and deal with death and grief on their own?
Some students try and hide the fact that a loved one has died, especially a parent. In one case a student whose father committed suicide told friends that he died from an aneurism. They do not want to be treated differently or singled out by teachers and friends. They may even use
school as a refuge, delving deeper into homework in order to focus on something other than the death, something they have control over. These reactions also apply to students who might be living with a terminally ill parent; school and schoolwork become a refuge from the pain.
What strategies do you use to help grieving students?
The main thing is to listen and let them take the lead on the direction they want to go with discussions; listen and let the
student lead. Sometimes students just want to vent their frustration, confusion, sorrow, anger, and guilt at wanting to forget and escape the pain of they are experiencing. If possible, I ask the student to tell me about the deceased. This allows them to review happy memories that can ease grief. There are also situations where the students are dealing with a terminally ill loved one and are preparing for death. There have been cases where students have never been to a funeral and turn to us for counseling on what happens during a funeral. I often discuss the stages of grief described by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross; denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, and the fact that this may involve
cycles where one loops back from later to earlier stages. I also encourage students to think about “legacy”- something they do to honor the wishes of the deceased. Maybe the deceased wanted them to go to college; we can help the student reach that goal. This type of focus helps give greater meaning the loss. As a Catholic school, we also talk about the spiritual aspects of death.
What do you advise teachers in order to help grieving students?
Teachers are asked to be patient and flexible. If a student is dealing with grief, allow them more time or even exemptions on school work if they are unable to focus. Some students refuse the offered help; they want to be strong and keep their commitments, and as mentioned before, not
get special treatment or be singled out from their peers.